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Special Town Meeting Minutes
DRAFT
Town of New Haven, Vermont
Moderator Lanny Smith opened the meeting at 7:50 after it was decided to stop the school informational meeting and to continue it after the town meeting ended.
The warning was read
The moderator will follow Roberts Rules of Order. People were asked to stand and state their name prior to speaking.
The legal voters of the Town of New Haven are hereby warned and notified to meet at the Town Hall in New Haven, Vermont on Monday evening the 10th of May 2004, at 7:30 PM to act on Articles 1 through 4.
Article 1: Shall the voters of the town of New Haven Vote to reconsider the following article? Article 24: Shall the Voters of New Haven vote to appropriate up to $82,500. 00 for construction documents and final pricing for development of the town offices and community center on the King House Site?
Article was read and a motion was made by Pam Marsh and seconded by David Millson. Pam Marsh spoke of being impressed with the potential for the King House to become a nice community place. It makes sense to have a community center. David Millson spoke of how he has lived here for 6 years, after purchasing land 20 years ago. They love it here and have seen many changes. This is a growing community and should have a community space. The selectboard has been carefully planning to do what needs to be done. This is an investment for the future. John Madden: We are all interested in a community center, how much will it cost?
Larry Buck: This will give us the actual pricing. This is not just the house this is the whole project. The ball field, the drainage, the house etc. at a cost of around $1.2 million. Burt Allen: Costs will go up if you wait. Roger Boise: Not against community center but does not think the King House should be used. It is a sinkhole and will never be fixed properly. We should build new. Clarification that we are actually voting to reconsider the article not re-voting on the article at this time. Pam Marsh erred in moving the article but thinks debate is good. Suggested that people vote against the article. She is in support of the King House project.
Lanny Smith: Likes to give some latitude because he believes debate is good. He also spoke about the March Town Meeting where Ms. Price was not allowed to speak. He looked in Roberts Rules of Order and it says you need unanimous consent or 2/3-majority vote on the next line. He will now go with the 2/3 majority.
Jerry Smiley: One reason to vote to reconsider would be because the drawings should include the library. He wishes we would bond for a new town library now and vote to get working drawings on the library as well.
Larry Buck: The library has always said they would like to raise the money. The current plan will be set up to accommodate the library. Jim Gallott: This does not include a separate building, but the library will be given use of the meeting room as a temporary location. Beverly Landon: Called the question. Pat Jaeger seconded. Mostly ayes with a few nays. The question was called. Explanation of what a yes or no would mean. John Madden asked for a hand count. Tie vote 54 to 54. Chair could cast the deciding vote. Paper ballot was asked for. 64 yes, 59 no, 1 blank.
Passed
Article 2: If Article 1 is voted in the affirmative. Shall the Voters of New Haven vote to appropriate up to $82,500. 00 for construction documents and final pricing for development of the town offices and community center on the King House Site?
Gail Freidin and Susie Leonard moved the question. Gail Freidin: The vote at town meeting was good. The Select board is taking into consideration long term planning and waiting will increase costs.
Susie Leonard: Believes that there is a need and that it is important to have a community center. Pete LaPete: He is not against a community center. He is against putting money into the King House. The town of Charlotte has a nice new building. Get rid of the house and put up a single story new building. Larry Buck: The $82,500.00 is for the whole plan including the ball field, the parking, drainage etc. This same money would be spent on developing plans for a new building. You are saving your history by saving the house. We are looking forward for 20-30 years. It is good to respect what was built a long time ago. James Bachand: Spoke of the house that was removed for the current parking lot. The King House should also be torn down. New building would be better. Tim Bouton: Lives in an old house. An old house that is not properly renovated can nickel and dime you to death. However if you do it right it will last longer. You can’t buy materials of the same quality now. It will be completely gutted and re-done. It will be better than new. Burt Allen: Looking for input. Jerry Smiley: Old buildings are worth saving but not for town buildings. Charlotte has a nice new building. Lincoln has a nice new library. Spoke of town being divided over many issues. Upset that library has no place to go. And how hard it will be to raise money to build a library. Spoke of being mad at the school and not wanting to do anything for them. John Madden: Spoke of it not being a problem to re-do old houses. But don’t need to spend so much on a community center. Pam Marsh – Library Trustee – Spoke in support of the King House project and of the project being for the community not the school. She also spoke of the ability for the library to use the meeting room until the money can be raised. Are there historic preservation funds available? Larry Buck: There are currently three people working on grant proposals. Betsy Curler, Kim Callahan and Gail Freidin. Library has been helping to fund the costs up to this point. They are now looking at the meeting room as a temporary location. The house will be picked up and put on a new foundation. It is not true that you can build new for cheaper. We do not have to put in an elevator; we can keep the stair rail. John McKinley: We don’t need a community center now when the high school has just passed a bond, and the salt shed is being done. This will raise taxes a lot. Why not move the house, keep the lot and build something smaller later. Roger Boise: At the original meeting he went to, he thought the house was not rare and that the price did not include upstairs. Will this finish upstairs? Larry Buck: Yes. Joanne Cousineau: Do we have to put in an elevator? Larry Buck: No all meetings could be held down stairs and that will be ADA accessible. Suzy Roorda: Is the house on the National Register of historic places? Larry Buck: Yes. Gail Freidin: clarification of village designation and house being example from that period of time. Dale Everest: What will be upstairs? Larry Buck: Office space. Dale Everest: Will there be room to expand? Larry Buck: Yes this is a 20-30 year projection. We will be out of vault space within 3 years. Bill Shafer: Does the town need permits? And have they been granted? Larry Buck: There are setback issues and they are being worked on. Discussion of permit issues and town being in compliance. George Jaeger: In favor of project the town needs a center and something that brings people together. It will need to have activities and the library has the tools to do that. This is a vague plan with empty rooms and offices and no room for the library. Seems like this is a fast track. It has taken 6 years and we have not generated a community. Mary Pratt: Heard the Select board speak of the need for space at town meeting, please do that again. Larry Buck: Our population has increased and we are close to needing a town administrator. We also need someone to pursue grant possibilities. The current office space consists of about 700 square feet of space which includes the vault, tables, maps, computers and people. The space is so tight one would wonder how or if they were getting professional services. With the increases in people re-mortgaging and more to be done in the office there are often more people working in the office then there is room for. Some records are not in the vault that should be due to the lack of space. When there are meetings in the office records are exposed to the public which should be kept private. Amos Roleau: The select board has spent hundreds of meetings and thousands of hours trying to understand the direction from the town. They did not make up this information, they have been asking for input. The work is now at a stand still. We will do what ever you want or nothing. Jerry Smiley: Perhaps this would be another way to accommodate the Pre-Kindergarten program in the community center. AL Karnatz called the question. Jerry Smiley seconded. Debate was stopped. The article was re read. Count of hands asked for. 52 yes to 44 no.
Passed
Article 3: Shall the voters of the Town of New Haven vote to return to having the Annual Town Meeting beginning at 9:00 am on Town Meeting Day?
Kathi Apgar and John Pratt moved the article. Amos Roleau: Remembered when town meeting used to be on town meeting day. Employers have to let you go if you ask. After 9 pm people are asleep. The first board’s meeting gets good participation and the second board’s meeting does not. They used to serve a potluck dinner in between the meetings, with one meeting being held in the morning the other after the dinner. He thinks this is a good idea. Burt Allen: You will have one day a year to hash it out. Ethan Mitchell: A UVM study showed that more people participated in meetings held on Town Meeting Day. Thinks it is a good idea. Kathi Apgar: In today’s economy people will be hard pressed to make a Tuesday meeting. Would like to amend the meeting to have town meeting on the Saturday prior to town meeting day. Al Calzini: Second. Pat Jaeger: Middlebury tried it and it did not work. John Madden: Good idea. Phil Buchwald: How would the voting work? Balloting would be happening at the same time. Gail Freidin: Concerned that attendance goes down when meetings are only informational with no voting. In favor of all day but would like to see stuff voted on at the meeting. Andy McCabe: Likes the idea of Saturday meeting but, he would rather take time from work than take time from fun. Could the voting be moved to Saturday as well? If not would rather have it all on Tuesday. Denise Many: Will not be paid for taking time off to attend meeting, her office would have to close if everyone took time of for town meeting day. She does not think it will work on Tuesday. Urged people to think about this before changing the date. Amendment was read and voted on Amendment defeated. George Jaeger: good way to promote community. Could have other activities and make it New Haven Day or something. Peter Carothers: Against all day meeting. Could we start earlier on Monday night? David Millson: What about two different meetings on two different nights. Amos Roleau: Can’t believe people are not willing to spend one day a year to decide how to spend millions of dollars. Pete LaPete: Moved it to evenings 30 years ago. Maybe its time to try during the day again. Al Calzini: Called the question. Many seconds. Article reread. 72 yes, 30 no.
Passed
Article 4: Shall the voters of New Haven vote by Australian ballot for all budget and any other monetary items.
Article moved by Kathi Apgar and Suzy Roorda.
Suzy Roorda: Everyone should have an opportunity to make a fair and impartial vote. It is hard to vote when people are around you. It would be better for people to have their own space. We vote on a lot of money without everyone’s vote. Jim McGrath: When it comes to spending money a vote should be personal, no one else’s business. Beverly Landon: This is common sense. Many people would vote by Australian ballot if they could. They cannot sit in these hard chairs and listen to all the whining and whimpering. Australian ballot would allow a larger number of people to vote at these meetings. She would like to amend the article to read $5,000.00 or more by Australian ballot. Robin Landon seconded. Kathi Apgar questioned how the outside agencies would be handled. Beverly Landon: They would remain by Australian ballot. Amendment was called by mostly ayes and a few nays. Amendment passed 59 yes, 44 no.
Pam Marsh: Opposed to idea. She has been the moderator for Mt. Abe for about 20 years. When she started the auditorium was full. Now there are only a handful of people who attend the informational meeting. Debate and informed discussion is now gone. This is what differentiates Vermont from other states. It is a unique form of democracy. She is worried that this would cause a loss of important participatory discussion. Please vote down. Moderator Lanny Smith temporarily relinquished his position as moderator to Pam Marsh so that he could speak to this article. Lanny Smith: Spoke of the 20 or so articles for discussion only at town meeting, only 4 of those articles had any one speak to them. Tonight we have had debate. It might not be clean, pretty or easy but it is good. Please vote article down. Kathy Barrett: Budget items are sometimes changed from the floor. This would eliminate any choices. Sometimes people are informed and sometimes they are not. It would be sad to lose the ability to amend an article. Denise Many: What about the people who want to attend but can’t. How do they do it?
John Pratt: It is ugly to vote at 12 pm at night when there are only a few people. People who can’t make it or are embarrassed to vote can get a paper ballot. There will be no reason to come if we vote by Australian ballot. John Peters: Has come to over 30 town meetings not counting special meetings. He has watched many discussions go down. If move to Australian ballot we will lose town meeting. We can bring in comfortable chairs or accommodate those who would like to come. Who wanted to come tonight? But, those who get off their ass and get informed are the ones who should be voting. Jim Gallott: How will this work? Will we vote on one package altogether? Dale Everest: Elders can’t come to town meeting. They have rights, too. Don’t take them away. Rhys Marsh: If you take the vote away from town meeting there is no purpose. Please vote down. Rick Shappy: Loves town meeting and thinks it is important. Has anyone ever had his or her mind changed at town meeting? Urged people to vote against. Jeff Everest: Elderly cannot come. They have the right to vote. Look at the school meeting; it did not change discussion for them. Sue Ford called the question. Many seconds. Paper ballot requested. 41 yes, 65 no.
Defeated
Article 5: To transact, vote and act upon any further non-binding business which may legally come before this meeting.
Eugene Charlebois motion to adjourn. There were several seconds.
Adjourn 10:15
Respectfully submitted: Barbara Torian
Approved:
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