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New Haven Planning Commission
New Haven Town Hall
October 6, 2005
Members Present: Allen Karnatz, Tom Boise, Keith Hall, Jim Walsh, John Evers,
Don Johnston, Susie Leonard
Guests: Jamey Holstein, Steve Giles, John Madden, Charles Roy, Diana Godfrey,
Mary Ellen Kinney, Ronald LaRose, Gary Barrows, Philip Livingston,
Mark Livingston, Dana Livingston, Dawn Marie Livingston,
Stephen Revell
Allen Karnatz, Chairman, called the meeting to order at 7:00 PM.
Public Hearing
1. James Schaefer wishes to subdivide his land on Otter Creek Highway (Route 17). This will be a final plat hearing of a major subdivision. SUB-3-05.
Jamey Holstein represented James Schaefer tonight. Jamey Holstein presented the survey Mylar, with no changes on it from the September 2005 meeting, and the septic Mylar. Upon review of the survey Mylar, Don Johnston indicated that the road frontage along Route 17 for the 5 acre lot, did not equal 400 feet as required. Jamey Holstein indicated the required road frontage is met along the Class 4 Town Road.
Allen Karnatz indicated that zoning along Route 17 is 5 acres and this lot is exactly 5.0 acres, thus there is no leeway if any measurements are incorrect. Jamey explained that the pins are set. Don Johnston indicated that the survey Mylar did not show the symbol for pins set. The surveyor will need to make the changes on a new Mylar showing the correct pin set symbol.
There are no changes/additions/or corrections to the septic Mylar.
John Evers moved to approve the application but not record both Mylar's until the PC gets the revised survey Mylar showing that the symbols match the legend.
Jim Walsh seconded.
Discussion – Tom Boise wondered if a Class 4 road counts as road frontage for the property even though it is not a road. Allen Karnatz indicated there are no stipulations in the regulations saying that the Class 4 road must be a usable road, as long as the road has not been thrown up or thrown back to a trail. Jamey Holstein indicated that the survey shows that the trail designation begins well back from the lots being subdivided.
Allen Karnatz read a document from the Selectboard dated April 5, 2001, that the Class 4 Road be reclassified to a trail.
John Evers withdrew his motion.
John Evers asked if an interior lot could have access by a right-of-way? Allen Karnatz indicated yes, but it has been the Planning Commission (PC) policy to have a 50 foot right-of-way. Allan Karnatz mentioned that the Mylar needs to reflect that the current Town ownership is a trail not a Class 4 road, and the survey symbols on the Mylar should match the legend, and 400foot of road frontage must be met along Route 17, not along the trail.
The James Schafer application will be continued at the November 2005 PC meeting.
2. William Shafer wishes to establish a Mini Golf Course and convert a small barn to a retail sports shop on is commercial lot on Ethan Allen Highway (Route 7). William Shafer wishes to postpone this site review until the November 2005 meeting, to work further on his plans for lighting and parking with regards to the PC site visit on September 13, 2005.
3. Bottum Properties Inc. (Mary Ellen Kinney and Diana Godfrey) requests a boundary line adjustment on North Street, Lot #174. Twenty-five feet of Bottum Properties Inc. would be transferred to adjacent property owned by John and Ann Perkins. Line Adjustment 01-05.
4. Bottum Properties Inc. (Mary Ellen Kinney and Diana Godfrey) wish to subdivide property on North Street into two parcels. This is the first plat hearing for a minor subdivision. Minor SUB 5-05.
Ron LaRose presented Bottum Properties Inc. plan to create a 25+ foot long strip which will be conveyed to Perkins. Plans are for some time in the future, the 2 acre parcel with existing house will be conveyed to Lynn Bottum, leaving the remaining lands in agricultural. Ron LaRose presented the final Mylar showing both the line adjustment and the subdivision with primary and replacement septic systems.
Allen Karnatz opened discussion up to the public for comment. No discussion. Public comment period closed.
John Evers' asked why the boundary line adjustment? Ron LaRose explained that the Perkins did not have room to put a ladder up against their own barn.
John Evers' made the motion to approve the boundary line adjustment.
Keith Hall seconded.
Discussion – none.
Vote: yes – 6 no – 0 abstention – 1 Tom Boise (he was not present at the previous meeting)
Motion carries.
Susie Leonard made the motion to approve the 2 acre subdivision.
Don Johnston seconded.
Discussion – none
Vote: yes – 6 no – 0 abstention – 1 Tom Boise (he was not present at the previous meeting)
Motion carries.
5. Phillip and Diane Livingston wish to divide their property on Daniels Road into 3 lots. This will be the first plat hearing for a minor subdivision. Major SUB 6-05.
Steve Revell explained that the Livingston's want to create 2 lots along Pearson Road from the farm property for their son's. Primary systems for both lots are on each respective lot with an easement off-site onto farm property for a replacement area. This was done to keep each lot small so it would not impact remaining farm land. Preliminary Plats were presented for each lot.
Allen Karnatz indicated that this was a preliminary hearing and the final hearing would be in November 2005. At the final hearing maps showing proposed well, isolations sites, and house locations should be presented. Steve Revell asked if the PC was interested in having building envelopes shown. Allen Karnatz indicated yes. Don Johnston indicated that multiple Mylar's are preferred. Steve Revell mentioned that PC would have 2 Survey Plats and 2 additional Plats showing the site plan and detail. A total of 4 Plats will be presented.
Allen Karnatz opened discussion up to the public for comment. No discussion. Public comment period closed.
John Evers' made the motion to approve the preliminary plat as presented.
Keith Hall seconded.
Discussion – none.
Vote: yes – 7 no – 0 abstention – 0
Motion carries.
The final hearing will be at the November 2005 meeting.
Phil Livingston asked if there might be any indication that this subdivision proposal might not be approved. While the weather was dry they would like to pile mound sand on the lots.
John Evers indicated that construction is not to be started until all the permit(s) have been approved.
6. Charles Roy wishes to subdivide his property on the East side of South Street into two parcels. This will be the first plat hearing for a minor subdivision. Minor SUB 7-05
Don Johnston recused himself from this discussion, as he is the surveyor for Charles Roy.
Don Johnston explained that Charles Roy wants to subdivide off 2 acres with the existing farmhouse, and on the remaining land build a new residence up the hill. The septic design done by Brad Ramsey and submitted to the State shows the existing and replacement septic for the farmhouse with an easement for the water line as the new house will share the well with the farmhouse. Primary and replacement septic are also shown for the new residence. A right-of-way with 50 foot radius, access easement is shown.
Allen Karnatz opened discussion up to the public for comment.
Don Johnston indicated that South Street has some conflicting history about the width of the right-of-way. Currently, projects are using a 3 rod right-of-way, but there is historically evidence indicating a 6 rod right-of-way. Because of this conflict Don Johnston has shown both right-of-ways on the map.
John Madden made a general point: Does the PC require the State permit for the application? How does the PC know if the application has been accepted by the State? Is there are requirement by Keith Hall to file this with a building permit? Keith Hall indicated that a file is kept on all well and septic systems and unless it has been approved by the State the individual cannot proceed with a building permit.
Public comment period closed.
John Evers' asked if work had commenced or if there had been any improvements to the road? Charles Roy indicated no building has commenced. The Town has done road work to alleviate icing across the road. Some gravel has been added to the existing farm road.
Tom Boise confirmed that Charles Roy was subdividing off 2 acres with the existing farmhouse. Charles indicated yes, because two houses cannot be on the same parcel.
John Evers asked if this was a preliminary and final approval? Yes.
Keith Hall made the motion to approve the minor subdivision as presented.
Tom Boise seconded.
Discussion – none.
Vote: yes – 6 no– 0 abstention – 1(Don Johnston was recused)
Motion carries.
7. Charles and Benda Charron wish to subdivide their property on the south-easterly side of Lime Kiln Road into 2 parcels. This will be the first plat hearing for a minor subdivision. Minor SUB 8-05.
Allen Karnatz recused himself from this discussion, he has been working with the Charron's on their Land Trust project. Jim Walsh became acting Chairman.
Lee Charron explained that they are selling a conservation easement on approximately 200 acres to the Vermont Land Trust. Some of the property is excluded from the easement. The Charron's were advised by their lawyer to subdivide the excluded farmstead acreage now. Site plans were presented tonight, the Charron's were under the impression that they had a certain number of days to present Mylar's for both lots.
Jim Walsh opened discussion to the public for comment. There was discussion on the absence of the Mylar's and could the PC approve without the Mylar's. Keith Hall indicated that the PC could approve the paper versions and the Mylar's could be presented within 90 days for the PC to sign off. Public comment period closed.
John Evers made the motion to approve the application and sign the Mylar if identical when presented.
Tom Boise seconded.
Discussion: - none
Vote: yes –6 no – 0 abstention – 2 Tom Boise (Allen Karnatz was recused)
Motion carries.
8. Charles and Brenda Charron wish to subdivide their property on the north-westerly side of Lime Kiln Road into 2 parcels. This will be the first plat hearing for a minor subdivision. Minor SUB 9-05.
Allen Karnatz recused himself from this discussion (as above)
The Site Plan was presented and shows the replacement system for the existing house. Lee Charron asked if the PC required the existing septic system must be shown on the Mylar. No, the PC does not require the existing to be shown, but the replacement must be shown on the Mylar. Lee Charron indicated that it was his understanding that until the lot(s) are sold, new septic designs do not need to be shown.
Keith Hall made the motion to approve Sub 9-05 and require a Mylar for Site Plan replacement and a Survey map.
Tom Boise seconded.
Discussion – none
Vote: Yes –5 No – 0 Abstention – 2 Tom Boise (Allen Karnatz was recused)
Public Hearing ended at 9:00 PM
Visitors Business
1. a) Jon Apgar presented a sketch plan for a subdivision on the west side of South Street. He wants to subdivide the parcel into two 70+/- lots.
Don Johnston recused himself from this discussion (as he might be the surveyor for the subdivision).
Tom Boise indicated that there is more than adequate road frontage for each lot.
Don Johnston in the role of the surveyor: Does the total 140 acres need to be surveyed or only the line between the 2 lots? Allen Karnatz indicated that only one lot (the lot that will be called the new lot), needs to be surveyed, but he urged Jon Apgar to have all of the lots surveyed.
Tom Boise made the motion to approve the sketch plan for the December meeting.
Susie Leonard seconded
Discussion – none
Vote: yes – 5 no – 0 abstention – 2 John Evers (because he owns nearby property), (Don Johnston recused himself earlier)
Motion carries
1. b) Tom Wallace presented a sketch plan for subdivision, for Martha Evarts 3.32 acre parcel on west side of Route 7. There is an existing easement right-of-way on the south side of the property and a 75 foot set back from Route 7. She proposes to access the newly created lot (1.9 acres) via the 65 foot right-of-way creating an interior lot with frontage on the right-of-way. Looking for direction from the PC if this is a feasible option.
Keith Hall indicated that this would be considered highway commercial, which is 1 acre. Allen Karnatz asked if there was any change of use. Tom Wallace indicated no, but there is the possibility of something commercial. Right now it would be considered bare land. Allen Karnatz asked if they had a road cut approval from the State, this would be a key factor for approval from the PC. Tom Wallace said no. Allen Karnatz indicated that documentation would be needed indicating that there is indeed an access permit for the 60 foot right-of-way.
Don Johnston indicated that if the subdivision was granted, the State will want to see a replacement septic system for the existing house. Tom Wallace asked if this would be a
requirement of the subdivision from the PC. Don Johnston and Allen Karnatz indicated yes, because it is a requirement from the State.
Allen Karnatz mentioned that the PC would need to see State road plan cut and septic documentation before approval of a sketch plan.
Discussion commenced on the set back and where it should come from. Along the right-of-way, or from Route 7. Keith Hall will get a ruling from Jim Ouimette regarding the set back.
There was no motion for sketch plan approval. There was some discussion about the strip of land in front of the new lot. Some felt that creating an interior lot bypasses the intent of the road frontage requirement. Tom Wallace said he would look into getting the required frontage from a neighboring property. If successful they would not need to create an interior lot. They need less than 10 feet.
1. c) Question from Beatrice Briggs about subdividing her 10 acre lot on Route 7 into two 5 acre lots. It was ruled that her area was zoned as RA-10. She cannot subdivide.
1. d) Joe Jackson – no show.
2. Review of September 2005 minutes.
John Madden indicated some changes to be made.
Susie Leonard moved to accept the September 2005 minutes as amended.
Allen Karnatz seconded.
Discussion – none
Vote: yes – 5 no – 0 abstention – 2 (Tom Boise, Jim Walsh)
3. Correspondence
Notice of appeal
Vermont League Cities and Towns
Waltham's new zoning regulations and public hearing
Letter concerning complying with the September 1, zoning changes and rules of procedures.
Bank statement for the planning grant
2 pieces of correspondence from VELCO
4. New Business
4. a) Discuss and adopt operation rules for conducting PC meetings.
John Evers reviewed the changes from the last work session. A copy of these rules are attached to these minutes.
Susie Leonard moved to adopt the Rules of Procedure as amended tonight.
Keith Hall seconded.
Discussion – none
Vote: yes – 7 no – 0 abstention – 0
5. Old Business
5. a) Work session schedule for October - The next work session will be held on Tuesday, October 18th at 6:30 PM, to begin work on the Town Plan.
5. b) Peter Norris, Sr. subdivision final Mylar showing septic plans, was presented for PC signature.
Allen Karnatz made the motion to adjourn the meeting
Discussion – none
Vote: yes – 7 no –0 abstention – 0
Motion carried.
The meeting was adjourned at 10:15 PM
Respectfully Submitted By:
Karen Gallott
(with attachment)