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New Haven Planning Commission
New Haven Town Hall
July 7, 2005
Members Present: Allen Karnatz, Don Johnston, Keith Hall, Tom Boise, Jim Walsh, Susie Leonard
Members Absent: John Evers
Guests: John Madden, Jamey Holstein, Gary Fern, Dolores Norris, Peter Norris, Sr., William Warren, Kate Lampton, Roger Barry, Susan Dann.
Meeting was called to order at 7:00 PM
Public Hearing
1. Sue Perna and Jamie Hutchins Subdivision on Twitchell Hill Road – SUB.7-04.
The final Mylar was presented tonight for approval by the Planning Commission. It is the same Mylar that was presented at the July 2, 2005 meeting but did not arrive prior to the 15 day cutoff.
Keith Hall made the motion to approve the subdivision and Mylar of Perna/Hutchins as presented.
Tom Boise seconded the motion.
Discussion – none
Vote: Yes – 6 No – 0 Abstentions – 0
Motion carries.
2. Charlie Roy – no show.
3. James Schaefer wishes to subdivide his land (3 lots off Otter Creek Highway [Route 17] and 1 lot +/- 400 acres off Pearson Road). This is the first plat hearing of a major subdivision. SUB3-05.
James Schaefer was represented by his agent, Jamey Holstein. Jamey Holstein indicated that there has been a sketch plan change since the June 2005 meeting. The change shows a newly created access serving the first 2 lots (Lot 1 and 3) directly off Route 17 along the westerly boundary line. This change eliminates the right-of-way that was shown on the original sketch plan and is a more attractive proposal, than what was originally submitted. Jamey Holstein has met with the VT Agency of Transportation (AOT) regarding this change, the AOT has given their approval and an application has been submitted to the State. The Lot 2 access will be served off the Class 4 Road. All septic systems will be shared systems with easements for all lots.
Keith Hall questioned the access to Lot 2 and how would it affect the Class 4 road. Allen Karnatz asked if any research had been done to determine the effect on the Class 4 road. Jamey Holstein indicated that he has not done any research other than looking at the Town road map which indicates the Class 4 road up to the graveyard then it turns into a trail. Jamey will meet with the surveyor to have the graveyard marked on the Site Plan and indicate the end of the Class 4 road and the beginning of the trail.
Jamey Holstein mentioned that the AOT indicated the access to Lot 2 off Route 17 via the Class 4 Road existing road cut was OK, but a paving apron would need to be shown as a right-of-way on the permit application.
Susie Leonard wondered if the Planning Commission approves this site plan, are they committing the Town of New Haven to maintaining the intersection of the Class 4 road and Route 17 and would the Town maintain any future driveway/culverts on the Class 4 road? Jamey Holstein indicated that his impression of a Class 4 road was maintenance was not up to the Town, but up to the landowner. Susie Leonard asked if the landowner would sign an agreement saying they would maintain the intersection of the Class 4 road and Route 17. Susie Leonard express a “future what if” concern of landowner pressure to upgrade the classification of this road to a higher classification, thus making the Town assume the maintenance responsibilities. Jamey Holstein indicated that he would check with the landowner and to see if it could be written in the deed that those who use the Class 4 road must maintain it as a Class 4 road.
Allan Karnatz asked if a road cut directly off Route 17 to Lot 2 would be a better alternative. Jamey Holstein indicated that they would have to get approval from AOT for a 50 foot cut adjacent to the Class 4 cut. Keith Hall indicated the Planning Commission should check with the Town Attorney regarding the Town’s obligation on the Class 4 road if the proposal were to be approved. Keith Hall will follow up with the Town Attorney and Phil (Town Road Commissioner) regarding the Town’s obligations to the Class 4 road. Jamey Holstein will also pursue other options for access directly off Route 17 with a small easement across Lot 1 to access Lot 2. There was no consensus among the Planning Commission as to what would be the best plan for access to Lot 2.
Allen Karnatz recommends that 2 Mylars be presented at the final hearing. The surveyor should show the frontage, curvature and right-of-way along Route 17 on the final Mylar.
Allen Karnatz opened up discussion for public comments.
William Warren mentioned that this development was in sight of his Pearson Road residence, he asked Jamey Holstein if Jim Schaefer had any additional plans for further subdivision of his lands. Jamey indicated that at this time, there are no other future subdivision plans.
Allen Karnatz indicated that a continuance of this major subdivision will be on the meeting schedule for August 2005.
4. Peter Norris, Sr. wishes to subdivide his land on the west side of Ethan Allen Highway (Route 7). This is the final plat hearing of a major subdivision SUB1-05.
Peter Norris Sr., introduced Gary Fern from Otter Creek Engineering and gave a brief review of the proposed project. 8 light commercial lots (maximum of 130 people) and 1 residential lot. The north end of Dog Team Road will access the residential lot only. Access to the commercial lots will be off Campground Road and via a new road cut off Route 7. All utilities will be underground. Approval from various agencies (Town/State) were also presented: VT State Police, Wetland Delineation approval, Historic Preservation (making sure no historic artifacts or views from historic buildings are being disturbed), VT AOT for Route 7 road cut, Rescue Squad, CVPS, Town of New Haven approval for Campground Road access, and New Haven Fire Department.
Gary Fern discussed the wastewater, stormwater and potable water issues. All wastewater systems are State approved mound systems with gravity feed from all lots to one pump station which will pump to the mound. Individual wells will be drilled for each lot. Stormwater/erosion control is addressed by each site having drainage ditches which will run into one detention pond.
Maintenance costs for this development will be born by each individual business; there will be no costs to the Town.
Allen Karnatz opened up discussion for public comments.
John Madden passed around a handout – RE: Shopping Center Proposal – July 7, 2005; expressing two major areas of concern: traffic and the area being a scenic resource area to New Haven. John Madden would like the Planning Commission to give serious consideration to these issues. Also under the new changes of Act 117 notice must be presented in the newspaper, posting in public places and including posting within view from the public right-of-way near or adjacent to where the application is made. Allen Karnatz asked John Madden is he was referring to the changes made to Act 117 which will be effective at the passing of the Bill on September 1, 2005? John Madden indicated that it was currently listed in Act 117, 4464(a)(1)(v) posting of public notices. AK indicated that as of September 1, 2005 section 412 and 413 will override all provisions of the existing bylaws. There may be some question if this takes precedence over the Town of New Haven’s requirements.
Kate Lampton expressed that the layout of the development was quite unimaginative, along the lines of a strip development, and could be been better designed. The issue of traffic serving the ingress and egress is not the best circulation pattern for this development.
Pete Norris’s rebuttal to John Madden’s comments. A survey (for the east side of the road) was previously presented to the Zoning Board, it was not realized at that meeting that prior warning needed to have been made. A month or two later it was discovered that prior warning should have been made, at that time a warning was posted for that upcoming meeting in June of that year. In terms of traffic, Peter Norris Sr., feels a traffic study is not needed now because all he is asking for tonight is subdivision approval.
Allen Karnatz opened discussion back to the Planning Commission. Don Johnston asked for a point of clarification regarding the drainage ditching for the development. Gary Fern indicated that all lots will have access to the ditching and ditching will be based on maximum building build-out based on what is allowed for zoning regulations both for building and parking, and all work done under the supervision of a certified engineer. Susie Leonard asked how much of each lot would be made impervious. Gary Fern indicated that it would be approximately +50% (25% building, 25% parking and roads added on top). Peter Norris, Sr. indicated that this would be a binding stormwater permit and future changes to the permit would not be allowed to future owners of the property.
Susie Leonard voiced a concern regarding traffic ingress/egress to and from Campground Road onto Route 7. It would be helpful to know what type of businesses would be located in this development. Peter Norris, Sr., indicated that in the future when businesses are identified, a traffic study will need to be done. But at this time he is here tonight for a subdivision ruling. Susie Leonard indicated that it would irresponsible for the Planning Commission to rule on anything unless an assumption of business types were identified and then base the number of vehicle trips these businesses would create. Gary Fern indicated that these assumptions would be misleading and incorrect and a decision would be made on incorrect assumptions. Susie Leonard indicated that she would be very uncomfortable on approving a development at this location until the traffic issue could be better clarified.
Peter Norris Sr., indicated that a traffic study will need to be done for Act 250. But at this time there is no indication that all 8 lots will be developed. It may only be a fraction of the lots are developed now and/or in the future…since this is an unknown issue at this time, traffic concerns really cannot be reasonable or adequately addressed.
Allen Karnatz thinks that Peter Norris, Sr., should do some measure of a traffic study. Due to impacts on traffic conditions at the Campground and Route 7 intersection. He brought up the point that someday there might need to be a traffic light and turns lanes added, because of the potential for 130 employees and customers.
Don Johnston questioned what a traffic study, at this time, would really show. Emphasizing that a traffic study would show what only what was being asked.
Susie Leonard asked if a berm could be installed along Route 7 for the entire length of the parcel to benefit esthetics. What about signage, would each site have their own signs or would there be only one sign. Peter Norris indicated that he hadn’t thought of a berm and the signage would be address in the site plan when it was presented. But tonight he was only asking for a subdivision plan.
Allen Karnatz made the motion requesting a traffic study before final approval.
Susie Leonard seconded.
Discussion – none.
Vote: Yes – 2 No – 4 Abstention – 0
Motion did not carry.
Tom Boise mentioned that the zoning regulations are adequate to address the traffic issues now as it has been on past issues, and will address each individual lot has they are developed. He also felt that the Norris’s have met all the rules/criteria and environmental issues for a subdivision of this lot.
Tom Boise made the motion to accept the subdivision as presented.
Jim Walsh seconded.
Discussion – Keith Hall made the amendment to go with the subdivision, but before any lot(s) will not be offered for sale or sold until an inspection of the property by the Planning Commission and a Certificate of Compliance issued indicating all Town/State regulations are met.
Pete Norris Sr., asked what was needed to obtain a Certification of Compliance?
Keith Hall indicated that the Planning Commission would have to inspect the property to ensure that all requirements indicated in the subdivision plan are done. What you (the owner) said you would do (i.e., water, sewer, stormwater, etc.)
Gary Fern indicated that would be a big investment by Mr. Norris Sr., before he can even sell a lot. This is no problem for the septic work as this will all need to be done prior to; sale; but all roadway and stormwater work do not need to be done for the entire 8 lots at once. The stormwater and drainage work is done individually as the lots are sold. Peter Norris, Sr., came back with the suggestion of doing a Phase Development.
Tom Boise indicated that all of this would be addressed during the site plan review process. Susie Leonard indicated that a performance bond would be an alternative.
Keith Hall amended an amendment to the motion. He suggested that the Planning Commission/Zoning Administrator should be required to issue a Certificate of Compliance indicating all Town/State regulations are met but before any lot(s) could be offered for sale or sold.
There was in-depth discussion on, is the Planning Commission asking for bonding, or asking for a Certificate of Compliance? Don Johnson asked why a bond was needed. Tom Boise indicated that all this can be accomplished during a site plan review.
Keith Hall rephrased his amendment a third time to say: As each lot is developed, the Planning Commission shall inspect the site and a Certificate of Compliance shall be issued when all criteria is met.
Discussion on this amendment and how it closely relates to the site plan review was initiated. Keith Hall withdrew his amendment, because there was no second and approval will be covered in the site plan review.
Don Johnston asked if there was anything in writing on the plans indicating that utilities would be underground. Peter Norris indicated that the site plan does not indicate that all utilities will be underground.
Don Johnston made an amendment: Approval will be predicated on, all utilities being placed under ground.
Keith Hall seconded
Discussion – none
Vote: Yes – 6 No – 0 Abstention – 0
The amendment passes.
There were no other amendments to the motion.
Vote was taken on the original amendment.
Vote: Yes –4 No – 2 Abstention – 0
The motion carries.
5. Site Review on an application submitted by the State of Vermont to build a new salt shed and make other improvements on their Main Street property (Route 17).
Roger Barry, consultant for VT Agency of Transportation (AOT), explained the proposed site plan. AOT is proposing to build another Quonset hut 64’ x 40’to cover sand and the current sand pile will be made into a parking lot, add grass areas, change fencing to block access to existing cold storage shed and salt shed areas, AOT wants to build another cold storage shed 26’x 60’ for plow storage.
Allen Karnatz confirmed that AOT was coming to the Planning Commission with 2 new buildings for site review. Roger Barry indicated yes, one building 40’x64’ and one 26’x60’, the shed roof height of the 64’x40’ sand shed will be 1’ higher than the existing shed. Upon review of the sketch plan it was discovered that the set back requirements were not met. The regulations state that the setback is 75’ from the centerline (road) to the corner of the building. The plans show that it is only 45’. The AOT could go to the ZBA for a variance. Roger Barry indicated that he will go back and reconfigure the building location.
Allan Karnatz asked for public comments. There were none.
Don Johnston asked to have the setbacks put on the plan.
Roger Barry was sent back for a revision.
The public hearing was closed at 9:40 PM
Visitor Business
1. Joe Jackson – no show.
2. Denton Lyon Mylar’s – 2 Mylars were presented by the Agent of the Estate for signatures. It was discovered that the Right-of-Way on the south side of Route 17 was shown as 25’ not 50’, as was shown on a previously submitted site plan. The Mylars were not signed and will be sent back to the surveyor for revision of the Right-of-Way.
3. Sue Dann wanted to discuss with the Planning Commission the substation plans that had been submitted to the Town of New Haven from VELCO (Allan Karnatz read the VELCO letter to the Commission members) and requested the written support of the Planning Commission which would be the same as the Select Board’s…the lines leaving the station going north remain in the current right-of-way.
Allen Karnatz will check with Jim Dumont, Esq., draft a letter to be approved by the Planning Commission members, and sent to VELCO to meet the July 14, 2005 deadline.
Review of the Minutes for June 2, 2005
Allen Karnatz made the motion to approve the minutes as presented.
Keith Hall seconded.
Discussion – none
Vote: Yes – 5 No – 0 Abstention – 1 - Susie Leonard
Motion carries.
Old Business
Eugene Charlebois' presented a Mylar to be signed, showing all lots and the new locations of the septic.
Keith Hall made the motion to approve the Mylar as presented.
Tom Boise seconded.
Discussion – none
Vote; Yes – 4 No – 0 Abstention – 2 Susie Leonard
Don Johnson
Correspondence
VT League of City and Towns Newsletter
VELCO Letter
Advertisement of Town Fair in September
Municipal Employees at Killington
Jim Dumont – VELCO correspondence
Planning Commission Surveys
Certified Mail from John Madden
New Business
Certified Mail from John Madden
RE: Citizens for Community Survey
Under the presumption that the original set of surveys are missing, John Madden is proposing to the Planning Commission to resend these surveys out again to all New Haven residences, and is asking if there is Planning Commission approval to do this.
Allen Karnatz asked if there was any support from the Planning Commission members to do this. Keith Hall asked “why would we want to do this”. John Madden explained that if his original surveys were destroyed, it would be a violation of individual’s civil rights. Allen Karnatz asked the Planning Commission members again, if there was any support to resend the Citizens for Community surveys. There was a unanimous no from all members.
John Madden indicated that he was hoping that Planning Commission would not proceed in this direction and indicated that this may be an issue to go through judicial process.
It was suggested that John Madden go back to the Select Board with this problem as they are the governing board for the Town of New Haven.
The Planning Commission approved the posting of the “DRAFT” meeting minutes in the Town Clerk’s Office prior to final approval by the Planning Commission.
The next regular work session is schedule for July 21st at 6:30 PM.
The next meeting of the Planning Commission, August 4, 2005, Jim Walsh will be acting chair, as Tom Boise and Allen Karnatz will not be present.
Allen Karnatz made the motion to adjourn.
Tom Boise seconded.
Discussion – none
Vote Yes – 6 No – 0 Abstention – 0
Meeting adjourned at 10:30 PM